Kinda? If you want to have an opinion of Marxists, I would read Marx and historical accounts by Marxists to even understand better what they are trying to do better, rather than Anarchist critiques of Marxism. Your initial comment came out attacking Marxists, so I tried to contextualize that more.
I don’t know how to more emphatically tell you that Debord was such a Marxist his many of his theses from Society of the Spectacle literally were copying/detourning Marx lines. His “plagiarism is necessary” thing is something he lived up to when writing the book. Like three quarters of things in the book are other writers words twisted into what Debord wants to talk about. The Lettrists/Situationists were literally building on what came before.
The spectacle is not a collection of images; it is a social relation between people that is mediated by images.
Clarify the difference, then, because whenever anyone seems to do so they end up just clarifying a tiny minority of western orthodox Marxists as “real Marxists” and the billions of practicing Marxists as “tankies.”
A tankie is someone who thinks that once their country is already fully communist that it’s their prerogative to enforce communist thought in their citizens through violence and control of information.
I’m not fucking saying the West is any better. Literally every country on this fucking shitty rock spinning through space sucks and it’s because humans suck. Every single one of them is authoritarian in how they’re structured. But to pretend like that doesn’t happen at all ever in communist countries is a fucking joke. Humans are flawed and government is imperfect everywhere, and when the solutions are to violently put down dissenting viewpoints or to memory hole information I personally think your government has lost the plot, no matter the type of government. Once again, this means literally every government on the planet has lost the plot.
You can’t tell me China is fucking perfect just like I couldn’t say any Western countries are fucking perfect. Literally everything is flawed, so when you’ve turned to violence to put down people who disagree and think that’s worth it, you’ve lost me.
Like bro we had an entire ass pandemic where if China had been more forthcoming with information instead of being politically embarrassed about it, it might not have been so fucking bad. No I don’t believe in any dumb lab shit theories, but this is what government’s everywhere do, they prioritize not looking bad over actually protecting their citizens. As they age, institutions start existing to exist and lose track of why they were originally created, that happens in all societies. (And no dip the US’s handling of COVID made it way worse, which is why it was important for China to take it more seriously so maybe it wouldn’t have made it to the fucking untrustworthy idiots in the US.)
No country has made it to a Communist mode of production yet, only Socialist, and all countries use violence to perpetuate their systems. By that metric, anyone who supports any Socialist country is a tankie. No, China isn’t perfrct, but it’s much better than western countries on average. You only seem to accept perfection as valid.
Once again, this means literally every government on the planet has lost the plot.
Just quoting myself here because yeah dude, all countries are guilty of this and it makes me ill. Just because I was born into a specific country doesn’t mean I have some fucking grand allegiance to it. The US is categorically the worst and most despotic country on the planet and it’s where I’m from, no argument. I’m from the tippy top of the worst of the worst. Sorry, not sorry, I don’t really have a voice in any of it.
You only seem to accept perfection as valid.
Am I, or am I the only one here dreaming of anything outside of what already exists? Like I said, we have a different opinion on centralization versus decentralization and I don’t think that’s going to change, and that deeply impacts how we both view these issues. You’ll just have to accept that when you say “centralize with democatic controls so no one can take advantage” to me that’s Utopian thinking. (Because once it’s centralized and a bad actor somehow does take over, then you can’t decentralize it quickly.) That’s acting like you already have the perfect solution. That’s not critiquing the status quo. Sure China is better than the West, but that doesn’t mean China can’t be better than it is now. And dear God, I hope that for China, because the West sure ain’t up to the charge of leading the world through climate change and mass extinction.
Bud, I’m reading theory, and you’re literally telling me I’m not reading the right theory.
Kinda? If you want to have an opinion of Marxists, I would read Marx and historical accounts by Marxists to even understand better what they are trying to do better, rather than Anarchist critiques of Marxism. Your initial comment came out attacking Marxists, so I tried to contextualize that more.
I don’t know how to more emphatically tell you that Debord was such a Marxist his many of his theses from Society of the Spectacle literally were copying/detourning Marx lines. His “plagiarism is necessary” thing is something he lived up to when writing the book. Like three quarters of things in the book are other writers words twisted into what Debord wants to talk about. The Lettrists/Situationists were literally building on what came before.
Sure, and I am telling you that based on your assertions thus far he evidently isn’t enough to actively take a hostile stance towards Marxists.
I have known Marxists, and they didn’t self-ascribe the term “tankie” to mean “Marxist.” In fact the ones I’ve known would bristle at the suggestion.
Clarify the difference, then, because whenever anyone seems to do so they end up just clarifying a tiny minority of western orthodox Marxists as “real Marxists” and the billions of practicing Marxists as “tankies.”
A tankie is someone who thinks that once their country is already fully communist that it’s their prerogative to enforce communist thought in their citizens through violence and control of information.
I’m not fucking saying the West is any better. Literally every country on this fucking shitty rock spinning through space sucks and it’s because humans suck. Every single one of them is authoritarian in how they’re structured. But to pretend like that doesn’t happen at all ever in communist countries is a fucking joke. Humans are flawed and government is imperfect everywhere, and when the solutions are to violently put down dissenting viewpoints or to memory hole information I personally think your government has lost the plot, no matter the type of government. Once again, this means literally every government on the planet has lost the plot.
You can’t tell me China is fucking perfect just like I couldn’t say any Western countries are fucking perfect. Literally everything is flawed, so when you’ve turned to violence to put down people who disagree and think that’s worth it, you’ve lost me.
Like bro we had an entire ass pandemic where if China had been more forthcoming with information instead of being politically embarrassed about it, it might not have been so fucking bad. No I don’t believe in any dumb lab shit theories, but this is what government’s everywhere do, they prioritize not looking bad over actually protecting their citizens. As they age, institutions start existing to exist and lose track of why they were originally created, that happens in all societies. (And no dip the US’s handling of COVID made it way worse, which is why it was important for China to take it more seriously so maybe it wouldn’t have made it to the fucking untrustworthy idiots in the US.)
No country has made it to a Communist mode of production yet, only Socialist, and all countries use violence to perpetuate their systems. By that metric, anyone who supports any Socialist country is a tankie. No, China isn’t perfrct, but it’s much better than western countries on average. You only seem to accept perfection as valid.
Just quoting myself here because yeah dude, all countries are guilty of this and it makes me ill. Just because I was born into a specific country doesn’t mean I have some fucking grand allegiance to it. The US is categorically the worst and most despotic country on the planet and it’s where I’m from, no argument. I’m from the tippy top of the worst of the worst. Sorry, not sorry, I don’t really have a voice in any of it.
Am I, or am I the only one here dreaming of anything outside of what already exists? Like I said, we have a different opinion on centralization versus decentralization and I don’t think that’s going to change, and that deeply impacts how we both view these issues. You’ll just have to accept that when you say “centralize with democatic controls so no one can take advantage” to me that’s Utopian thinking. (Because once it’s centralized and a bad actor somehow does take over, then you can’t decentralize it quickly.) That’s acting like you already have the perfect solution. That’s not critiquing the status quo. Sure China is better than the West, but that doesn’t mean China can’t be better than it is now. And dear God, I hope that for China, because the West sure ain’t up to the charge of leading the world through climate change and mass extinction.