We’re not going to see eye to eye because you won’t consider my perspective. You’ve already decided that you’re right and that I’m wrong before the conversation even starts. You’re not open to the idea that maybe you aren’t right about this. I’d ask you to consider that. Just open yourself to that one thing, that one possibility that maybe you’re wrong about this. Consider that maybe you haven’t thought of every possible challenge to your view of gender. I am absolutely willing to consider your perspective, and I feel I more than have throughout this conversation. Afford me the same dignity and treat my ideas as legitimate points worth considering. If you’re definitely right and I’m definitely wrong, then considering my arguments shouldn’t matter, right? Because if I’m wrong anyway, then my arguments shouldn’t change that.

I don’t think you’re really a bad person. You said some shock value troll comments at the start of all this but then actually spent like 2 hours of your time talking with me. The good thing to do, the morally right thing to do, when faced with information that challenges our worldview, is to consider whether we are right or not.

Okay, I mean you haven’t really respected my rights to be “called a chick” in this conversation but I’m glad you’re willing to respect my right to be identified with whatever terminology I feel best describes me.

What I’m saying I am is a woman, a transgender one who was assigned male at birth and transitioned as a young adult. I’m not claiming to be anything else.

I can’t tell what you’re responding to here. Are you saying you know how I look? I never said I was pretty, nor did I say that you definitely wouldn’t be able to tell i was trans. I said that actually speaking with and interacting with me I feel you’d have a hard time conceiving of me as a man. I do not fall in line with western masculinity in really any way. I’m also very confident in my identity. You calling me a man doesn’t make me feel uncomfortable, just disrespected.

I also have ADHD. No argumentative points to that. I just thought I’d point that out.

As I said in my other comment, nothing, as I have had gender reassignment surgery. And even if I hadn’t it wouldn’t matter. My gender is not determined by my hormones.

I don’t dispute the fact, I pointed out that I don’t believe you. It’s fine if that’s true though, because i then shared my own experience of being mistaken for a girl many times as a child and teenager. I was assigned male at birth, so at the time saw myself as a boy and I think you’d agree at the time that I was. I still was called a girl all the time. When I corrected people, they accepted the correction.

I stated a lot more about how gender isn’t biologically determined in the above. If you want to challenge individual points I’ve made, I’d like it if you could actually respond to those points. Instead of just blindly state that you’re right despite all the challenges I’ve made that you haven’t responded to.

I highly doubt you would agree that I’m a man if we met. Even if you could tell I was trans id still be willing to bet you wouldn’t be able to internally conceive of me as a man. I am very conventionally feminine and dress and present myself in a way that is very in line with how other women my age dress and present.

I have had reassignment surgery, so nothing would happen if the pills were taken away. My body does not produce any more testosterone than a cisgender woman’s does. Even if I hadnt had reassignment surgery, biology still isn’t how we determine gender. My gender wouldn’t change in the absence of medication.

You should respond more to what I said there. I added more at the end. Actually try and respond to what I’m saying. If your position is defensible and you are competent at defending it then prove it.

We already established that gender is not determined by biology. We determined that a dozen times over at this point. You assign gender based on what you see, and it’s up to people to correct you if you got it wrong. This works fine when the person is cisgender, but you have decided is unacceptable when they’re trans.

In what way are you “a dude or a girl at birth” if “dude or girl” is something people decide by how you look and not by your biology? And how do you explain masculinity or femininity being culturally relative? Men hold hands and kiss each other on the cheeks in some cultures. Those expressions of affection are masculine, as are skirts and well manicured nails in other cultures. There are some culture where being thin and vain are considered masculine. And some cultures where being stocky and blunt are considered feminine.

Femininity and masculinity are 2 words that essentially mean “of men and women”. It’s just a roundabout way of referring to genders. A feminine man is gender non-conforming, their femininity goes against their assigned gender. They are presumed to be masculine because of their assigned gender, and therefore discouraged from being feminine. Allowing people to self determine their gender directly liberates them from this process.

If you’re willing to allow someone like me to exist, someone with a vagina and estrogen and breasts who was nonetheless assigned male at birth, what functionally is preventing you from respecting my identity as a woman? Why is that unacceptable to you? What is being damaged by acknowledging my gender? Language isn’t sacred, and I feel like I’ve more than pointed out already that the word woman is not determined by someone’s biology. So what is the reason why you insist that society affirm and uphold the right of other people to tell me what gender I am? If it’s not biology and it is restrictive, literally giving me rules for who I am and who I’m allowed to be and how people must treat me, like it’s demonstrably severely damaging to my mental well-being, then why is it necessary for assigned gender to still be upheld? Why is it okay for you to continue to assert that about me? You disrespect me and my experiences when you continue to call me a man.

It’s your responsibility to correct someone if they misgender you. It’s their responsibility to accept the correction and respect your identity after they have been corrected.

I am absolutely not the one making it sound like a complex thing haha you’re the one who brought up pregnancy as though that’s how we determine how to gender someone.

Perfect, so you agree that how someone looks to you is how you gender them. It isn’t their ability to reproduce, it isn’t their chromosomes, it isn’t their genitalia, it’s how they look. Like someone might be wearing clothes considered feminine in your culture, they might be wearing makeup or have visible breasts or a frame or facial structure associated with femininity in your culture. They might carry themselves in a way considered feminine by your culture, have a voice in a higher range or speak in a cadence and tone associated with femininity by your culture.

You would be inclined to gender that person a woman and use pronouns she and her for them. Pretty simple right, you’ve seen girls your whole life you know what they look like. You know how they talk how they move what they wear. Same with boys. You know the way boys look and how they move and talk, what clothes they wear, how their hair is cut, how they’re built and what their faces look like.

But you’ll note that none of these things are hard-line biological rules. Women are still women without breasts, with deep voices, with squarer builds and heavier facial structures. Women are still women with facial hair from PCOS. Womanhood is not something determined by biology. Otherwise, you’d ask for concrete proof every single time you had to refer to someone. It also exists whether or not someone completely matches what you expect women to look like or not. And if you gender a cisgender person wrong, if you call a girl a boy, she can correct you, and you will apologize and refer to her as a girl. She looked like a boy to you from that angle, but you were wrong.

Gender is a social class. It is how we treat people socially. It defines certain rules and conventions for how you think about someone and how you interact with them. Transgender rights is liberating people to determine what their own gender is. It’s allowing gender identity to be self determined instead of assumed by other people. It’s pointing out, correctly, that gender is not defined by biology. It is defined by convention by what other people call you. That men and women are not biologically hardwired towards gender. Dresses are not a part of women’s biology, nor long hair, nor push-up bras. Those things are culturally and socially determined. Assigned gender is defined by restriction, boys can’t do that girls can’t do this. Liberating people from assigned gender allows them to define who they are.

In short, gender is something you assign by what you see. What you see can be wrong. And when it’s wrong you trust the person speaking when they correct you (unless you’re an asshole). This has always applied to cis people. But it is restrictive, it forces people to be and act a certain way even if they don’t want to. And it doesn’t have to be that way. Your gender should be up to you. Everyone’s should be.

Haha, I don’t believe that for a second. Whether you have or not doesn’t matter, because it happens all the time. And as someone who was an androgynous kid I got called a girl all the time. I certainly didn’t do anything to dissuade that. People used to ask my mom who her little sister was cause my mom was a young mother. And she’d have to awkwardly correct them both on the fact that I was her child and that I was a boy.

Are you going to actually respond to the rest of that comment though? Come on bro prove the American education you received was in any way enough to be a functioning adult and let’s see some reading comprehension skills.

You’ve never gendered someone wrong before? Never seen a boy with long hair and called him a girl by accident? Never got someone’s gender wrong because of how they looked? Do you interact socially with other people very often?

But I’ll ask again. Every time you talk about another person, either directly or indirectly, do you demand to see biological evidence of past or present pregnancy, or the ability to become pregnant, before you can agree they are a girl or a woman? If the answer to that question is no, then how do you know that they are a girl or woman? What is it that tells you that? What are you assessing that tells you that they are a girl or woman?

I’ll ask again since you seemingly didn’t understand.

Before you can decide if someone you’re referring to or talking with is a girl or a woman, do you need to see proof that they are pregnant, have been pregnant, or can become pregnant? Do you put a hold on every social interaction you have until you are presented with such proof?

Do you need to see proof that someone is or has been pregnant before you can agree they are a girl or woman?

You really don’t have a clue what trans people are do you? The reason some of us require access to hormone replacement and surgical healthcare is specifically because of the way that our bodies are. Accepting trans people is not in any way illogical or unscientific. It is an acknowledgment that gender is not a simple binary option. We would expect gender to exist identically across the entire world if that were the case. It doesn’t. Western imperialists have a long history of enforcing a binary patriarchal view of gender onto conquered peoples. And people have always resisted that too, non-binary gender and trans gender people have always existed under differing names throughout human history.

Man and Woman are not and never have been determined by biology. When you choose what pronoun to use for a stranger, you do not need to first look at their blood tests or their genitals. If you gender a stranger wrong, and they correct you you generally just apologize and move on. When I was a young child and had long hair people frequently referred to me as a girl. It was never an issue when they would be corrected on that. They didn’t need to see my blood tests or my genitals to believe me when I corrected them. Because that’s not how gender works, it is not and never has been a product of biology. It is associated with different bodies, but that is not its basis.

Trans people are not denying reality, rather we are acknowledging it and saying people should have the choice of what gender is assigned to them. That instead of assigning it everyone should be free to state their own gender. That this process is not disruptive or damaging to any aspect of society (and it isn’t, there has never been one single legitimate peer-reviwed non-discredited study that showed that it is).

You might love having a cock and a flat chest and being a man but I absolutely hated it! It was the driving force behind multiple suicide attempts throughout my adolescence and early adulthood. I’ve been on hormones for a decade and it has made me a million times happier, I got reassignment surgery 2 years ago and I have never been a healthier person and never felt as good about my own body. It has had a very provably fantastic effect on my well-being. It is entirely scientific.

Misinformation and violent rhetoric about minorities is hate. It has no place in society and allowing it achieves nothing expect the proliferation of bigotry.