I think the flaw is human nature. All governments and organizations are corrupt. All implementations are always twisted to suit the greed of individuals.
It’s entirely possible to create policy and enforcement mechanisms that would mitigate or eliminate excessive greed but nobody with anything votes for it because they’ll lose out on their own personal greed by their measure. They want that chance to fleece the masses even if they aren’t in the club that’s already doing it.
I think the flaw is human nature. All governments and organizations are corrupt. All implementations are always twisted to suit the greed of individuals.
Please take your nickname seriously for a moment and do some critical thinking about what you just said.
“Human nature” being greedy and corrupt is a completely horrible and wrong argument that only serves to keep us desillusioned about change. Saying that human nature is greedy and corrupt while currently living in a capitalism system is the same as studying human nature inside a coal mine and coming to the conclusion that it must be human nature to cough your lungs out. Our environment have a deep influence on us and you can’t just ignore that.
If you really want to argue about human nature, the simple fact that we are social creatures that often help each other out of empathy and compassion already negates your argument.
It’s entirely possible to create policy and enforcement mechanisms that would mitigate or eliminate excessive greed but nobody with anything votes for it because they’ll lose out on their own personal greed by their measure.
Voting will not change the system, you cannot change it from within. The capitalist class might give us a few breadcrumbs here and there to keep us from revolting, but they will always do everything to keep the system as it is because it benefits them as a class.
This is not an individual issue. As much as some individuals are horrible pieces of shit, these interests are collective and shows the class struggle in society.
I would argue this is more an issue of when citizens get complacent and stop holding those who govern them accountable. This is when any form of government will eventually start turning to the corruption. Those in power can change the rules while citizens are going about their lives. It works even better if the citizens are too busy and stressed out to worry about “silly things like politics”.
Getting everyone to be involved and knowledgeable about absolutely everything and to fight to make things right is beyond the capabilities of current humans. The more I know the more I understand I don’t know a lot about so many things beyond what i’ve experienced. Ignorance drives so many reactions (including the personal attacks from my comments here.)
I have met many individuals in this world who get very, very angry that someone else is doing x, y, or z - even if it has zero impact on them. Some of the reactions to my comments here about a very logical challenge that could have solutions with technology are attacked with illogical non-arguments and are a perfect example of how impossible it is to get humans to think critically about things when they have their own biases.
I do agree that human nature is a huge problem. For a utopian government, I do think that is fairly impossible at the moment. As you have said we will need some novel idea or technology, or human nature will have to evolve in some way (that could take a very long time though).
As for citizens advocating for themselves, you seem to be thinking of peaceful ways to have a government that avoids becoming corrupt. While ideal, as we know humans are far from that and why eventually corruption turns to revolt if the needs of citizens are not met. I am not saying this will solve the issue either. As far as I can tell it just renews the cycle at best, or continues the corruption under a new group at worst. I only say this as technically this is a way citizens will eventually advocate for their rights if the government becomes too corrupt.
As for the desires of laws for each individual citizen, this is essentially impossible as only very small groups will have ideals and values that are homogeneous. In a populace large enough, human nature will lead to conflicting ideas on which laws should exist and how governments should run. In democracies, this plays into the hands of people or organizations with nefarious political goals. These groups can exploit human nature to get citizens to focus emotionally on a small subset of policies and laws. This tactic can be very powerful in places that don’t regulate this kind of propaganda, such as the United States.
I would argue this form of political propaganda being pushed by powerful groups that don’t represent the majority of citizens, towards citizens in other groups is one of the main cause of citizens being politically inactive. This creates biases and causes a lot of people to make decisions based on issues whose prevalence is artificially amplified. While that issue may be very important and should be advocated for, this should not be left to powerful groups or organizations that are not representative of the citizens. This also creates a ton of noise, making other issues that may directly affect or be advocated for by a large portion of the population to be obscured. All of this leads to information overload, fatigue, and complacency which leads to ignoring politics and possibly being politically inactive. I say possibly because people will still vote because it’s their civic duty but will be uninformed which can be even more dangerous than not participating in politics. This also turns politics into a sport based on what the current political “hot topic” is, which a lot of people don’t want to participate in and turns them away from being active politically.
In my opinion, the best solution to get citizens politically active is the need to make politics less biased and present legislation and policies in a fairer fashion. This will not get every citizen involved, but it will encourage more unbiased and informed decisions which will further fight corruption. Politically active citizens can look at legislation and policy proposals and make the sometimes difficult decision of which is the best choice in the present moment. This should also help with “political fatigue” which can cause citizens to not participate. Of course some people will never vote (unless forced to by law), but the best we can do is try to make the process simpler and use less of peoples time and resources.
All this being said, it will still be an uphill battle for democracies such as the United States to undo the influence of powerful groups in politics, and make their democracies fairer and more representative of the people. I wouldn’t say it’s impossible, but to do so peacefully will take a ton of perseverance, hard work, and most likely a bit of luck.
In very small organization sizes it’s possible but as people come and go eventually someone will get control to make decisions that put their interests or their connections interests ahead of the masses.
I think “it’s human nature” is an excuse made by the ruling class to quell challenges to the system that benefits them.
Sociopathic hoarding and anti-social manipulation is an abberation that our system artificially elevates and rewards.
If we were culturally more hostile to attempts to rent out our lives and natural resources back to us, and didn’t put zero-empathy profit hoarders on the front of magazines, things could be better.
I agree with you on group sizes though. When people are treated like hyper-specialized insects with ID numbers instead of identities, funneled into highly-specialized roles, every one a stranger to the other, something has gone horribly wrong.
In what way does this graph say humans are not corrupt and taking advantage?
Even under communism the 1% had 4% of assets, that’s not 1% of assets like true communism should be. That in and of itself proves corruption to me. The fact that the USSR fell and a handful of 1%ers got the majority of industries for pennies on the dollar is egregious corruption. None of this is a criticism of communism. This is criticizing the actions of individuals who decided to be corrupt.
It’s just human nature. Some people call it “enlightened self interest” others call it nepotism, some call it survival of the fittest. Some call it gaming the system. In all cases it’s the same problem. Sometimes things can go well for a while but on a scale of even just a hundred years when an organization has more than a couple hundred people it simply goes sideways.
Even under communism the 1% had 4% of assets, that’s not 1% of assets like true communism should be.
In the US, the top 1% has over 30%. Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Just because a socialist state hadn’t yet reached some Platonic ideal doesn’t mean it should be thrown out with the bathwater. You can’t go from a decimated, war-ravaged, illiterate, feudal agrarian backwater to some socialist utopia overnight.
This graph does not say that no-one is corrupt, correct. It does however show that the soviet system had much less inequality than what came before (under the Tsar) and after (capitalism). This is an improvement. This graph does not prove corruption either. Some having more than others is not corruption.
The soviets did not reach communism, they were building socialism.
Under capitalism, the vast majority of people must labour, by getting a job… if they can, to get money to have a house, food, medicine, etc. They take actions in line with how capitalism functions, this is “human nature”, to survive, yes, but not in the way that you use those words. Under socialism, you are guaranteed a job, housing, food, there is free healthcare, etc. The actions the same person would take under socialism are different. So what you call “human nature”, but is just actions taken within context of capitalism, is not actually human nature.
Based on your comment history and how negative you are about absolutely everything… have you looked in the mirror lately?
Also keep in mind that I have simply made a hypothesis that humans are incapable of not being corrupt in organizations at scale. How in the fuck is that any one political leaning? The system itself is irrelevant. Even in communes where everyone “shares equally” there’s usually someone in leadership getting special exemptions and special treatment.
I think the flaw is human nature. All governments and organizations are corrupt. All implementations are always twisted to suit the greed of individuals.
It’s entirely possible to create policy and enforcement mechanisms that would mitigate or eliminate excessive greed but nobody with anything votes for it because they’ll lose out on their own personal greed by their measure. They want that chance to fleece the masses even if they aren’t in the club that’s already doing it.
Blame humans.
Please take your nickname seriously for a moment and do some critical thinking about what you just said.
“Human nature” being greedy and corrupt is a completely horrible and wrong argument that only serves to keep us desillusioned about change. Saying that human nature is greedy and corrupt while currently living in a capitalism system is the same as studying human nature inside a coal mine and coming to the conclusion that it must be human nature to cough your lungs out. Our environment have a deep influence on us and you can’t just ignore that.
If you really want to argue about human nature, the simple fact that we are social creatures that often help each other out of empathy and compassion already negates your argument.
Voting will not change the system, you cannot change it from within. The capitalist class might give us a few breadcrumbs here and there to keep us from revolting, but they will always do everything to keep the system as it is because it benefits them as a class.
This is not an individual issue. As much as some individuals are horrible pieces of shit, these interests are collective and shows the class struggle in society.
I would argue this is more an issue of when citizens get complacent and stop holding those who govern them accountable. This is when any form of government will eventually start turning to the corruption. Those in power can change the rules while citizens are going about their lives. It works even better if the citizens are too busy and stressed out to worry about “silly things like politics”.
Getting everyone to be involved and knowledgeable about absolutely everything and to fight to make things right is beyond the capabilities of current humans. The more I know the more I understand I don’t know a lot about so many things beyond what i’ve experienced. Ignorance drives so many reactions (including the personal attacks from my comments here.)
I have met many individuals in this world who get very, very angry that someone else is doing x, y, or z - even if it has zero impact on them. Some of the reactions to my comments here about a very logical challenge that could have solutions with technology are attacked with illogical non-arguments and are a perfect example of how impossible it is to get humans to think critically about things when they have their own biases.
I do agree that human nature is a huge problem. For a utopian government, I do think that is fairly impossible at the moment. As you have said we will need some novel idea or technology, or human nature will have to evolve in some way (that could take a very long time though).
As for citizens advocating for themselves, you seem to be thinking of peaceful ways to have a government that avoids becoming corrupt. While ideal, as we know humans are far from that and why eventually corruption turns to revolt if the needs of citizens are not met. I am not saying this will solve the issue either. As far as I can tell it just renews the cycle at best, or continues the corruption under a new group at worst. I only say this as technically this is a way citizens will eventually advocate for their rights if the government becomes too corrupt.
As for the desires of laws for each individual citizen, this is essentially impossible as only very small groups will have ideals and values that are homogeneous. In a populace large enough, human nature will lead to conflicting ideas on which laws should exist and how governments should run. In democracies, this plays into the hands of people or organizations with nefarious political goals. These groups can exploit human nature to get citizens to focus emotionally on a small subset of policies and laws. This tactic can be very powerful in places that don’t regulate this kind of propaganda, such as the United States.
I would argue this form of political propaganda being pushed by powerful groups that don’t represent the majority of citizens, towards citizens in other groups is one of the main cause of citizens being politically inactive. This creates biases and causes a lot of people to make decisions based on issues whose prevalence is artificially amplified. While that issue may be very important and should be advocated for, this should not be left to powerful groups or organizations that are not representative of the citizens. This also creates a ton of noise, making other issues that may directly affect or be advocated for by a large portion of the population to be obscured. All of this leads to information overload, fatigue, and complacency which leads to ignoring politics and possibly being politically inactive. I say possibly because people will still vote because it’s their civic duty but will be uninformed which can be even more dangerous than not participating in politics. This also turns politics into a sport based on what the current political “hot topic” is, which a lot of people don’t want to participate in and turns them away from being active politically.
In my opinion, the best solution to get citizens politically active is the need to make politics less biased and present legislation and policies in a fairer fashion. This will not get every citizen involved, but it will encourage more unbiased and informed decisions which will further fight corruption. Politically active citizens can look at legislation and policy proposals and make the sometimes difficult decision of which is the best choice in the present moment. This should also help with “political fatigue” which can cause citizens to not participate. Of course some people will never vote (unless forced to by law), but the best we can do is try to make the process simpler and use less of peoples time and resources.
All this being said, it will still be an uphill battle for democracies such as the United States to undo the influence of powerful groups in politics, and make their democracies fairer and more representative of the people. I wouldn’t say it’s impossible, but to do so peacefully will take a ton of perseverance, hard work, and most likely a bit of luck.
So it would be best to live under a system that doesn’t encourage and reward such behavior, no?
I’d love one, I don’t think humans are capable.
In very small organization sizes it’s possible but as people come and go eventually someone will get control to make decisions that put their interests or their connections interests ahead of the masses.
I think “it’s human nature” is an excuse made by the ruling class to quell challenges to the system that benefits them.
Sociopathic hoarding and anti-social manipulation is an abberation that our system artificially elevates and rewards.
If we were culturally more hostile to attempts to rent out our lives and natural resources back to us, and didn’t put zero-empathy profit hoarders on the front of magazines, things could be better.
I agree with you on group sizes though. When people are treated like hyper-specialized insects with ID numbers instead of identities, funneled into highly-specialized roles, every one a stranger to the other, something has gone horribly wrong.
I think it is possible
In what way does this graph say humans are not corrupt and taking advantage?
Even under communism the 1% had 4% of assets, that’s not 1% of assets like true communism should be. That in and of itself proves corruption to me. The fact that the USSR fell and a handful of 1%ers got the majority of industries for pennies on the dollar is egregious corruption. None of this is a criticism of communism. This is criticizing the actions of individuals who decided to be corrupt.
It’s just human nature. Some people call it “enlightened self interest” others call it nepotism, some call it survival of the fittest. Some call it gaming the system. In all cases it’s the same problem. Sometimes things can go well for a while but on a scale of even just a hundred years when an organization has more than a couple hundred people it simply goes sideways.
In the US, the top 1% has over 30%. Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Just because a socialist state hadn’t yet reached some Platonic ideal doesn’t mean it should be thrown out with the bathwater. You can’t go from a decimated, war-ravaged, illiterate, feudal agrarian backwater to some socialist utopia overnight.
This graph does not say that no-one is corrupt, correct. It does however show that the soviet system had much less inequality than what came before (under the Tsar) and after (capitalism). This is an improvement. This graph does not prove corruption either. Some having more than others is not corruption.
The soviets did not reach communism, they were building socialism.
Under capitalism, the vast majority of people must labour, by getting a job… if they can, to get money to have a house, food, medicine, etc. They take actions in line with how capitalism functions, this is “human nature”, to survive, yes, but not in the way that you use those words. Under socialism, you are guaranteed a job, housing, food, there is free healthcare, etc. The actions the same person would take under socialism are different. So what you call “human nature”, but is just actions taken within context of capitalism, is not actually human nature.
Maybe in the context of an ideologically opposed global hegemony, you’re right. Maybe we should do something about that.
No
You’re wrong.
No, take your fascist misanthropy elsewhere.
Based on your comment history and how negative you are about absolutely everything… have you looked in the mirror lately?
Also keep in mind that I have simply made a hypothesis that humans are incapable of not being corrupt in organizations at scale. How in the fuck is that any one political leaning? The system itself is irrelevant. Even in communes where everyone “shares equally” there’s usually someone in leadership getting special exemptions and special treatment.
No, take your fascist misanthropy elsewhere