I’m gonna get real with you folks, we’ve had way too many of these posts recently. I’ve been reflecting on this topic a lot the past few days. For me personally, I couldn’t care less about my gender identity. But just because that’s true for me, doesn’t make that true for everyone.
The beauty of the fediverse is that if you don’t like the way a particular instance or community is moderated you can simply choose another to hang out on, or create your own.
Blajah has made it pretty clear by now they will ban anyone who argues against the validity of xenogenders, in order to create a safe space for those folks. That’s fair enough imo.
Safe spaces should be respected, and Blajah’s admins/mods do not deserve abuse for creating and maintaining those spaces.
I can completely understand why Blajah users don’t want to have to constantly argue with external users about the validity of their chosen identities. Bans are one way Blajah has decided to manage that problem so that their users can experience lemmy in relative peace and safety. While it is a blunt tool and I have my reservations about preemptive bans, there are not many other options for @ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone, other than defederation from most instances. That would be a terrible outcome for the fediverse as a whole.
In order to help Blajah to maintain their safe space, I would like to propose, if @db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com agrees and community sentiment is positive:
- that we no longer accept posts about this topic in this community; and
- we also remove previous posts on this topic from the community.
That’s all folks, have at 'er.
Edit: thanks for all your feedback and comments. I think it’s clear that the vast majority of people are fed up with this topic coming up repeatedly.
Summarizing the feedback, I’d say most folks would prefer to retain previous posts for the sake of posterity, and to serve as an example of why we don’t want anymore of these posts. I’m happy to take that on board. For those folks saying I’m a PTB for intervening in this way, I’ll just remind you that I haven’t made any arbitrary mod decisions, and I’ve consulted with db0 and the community as a whole before taking any mod actions.
I think the way to move forward with this is to acknowledge that there’s a bunch of queer and straight people who have a problem with xenogenders. Personally, I think that’s a valid perspective and shouldn’t sanctioned on our instance. But for Blajah, they’ve drawn a line in the sand over this and that’s ok too. Our instance won’t be blocking anyone over their opinions on the topic, especially in this community where free discussion is necessary and encouraged. But safe spaces should be respected.
A lot of folks mentioned I should more more specific about the “no more posts about Blajah’s mod policies” rather than making it a sweeping and overly broad statement. I think that’s good feedback. I will amend this to "No more posts in this community about the validity or otherwise of neopronouns, xenogenders, and bans originating from Blajah about gatekeeping or transphobia. This is in recognition of Blajah’s safe space policy. You are of course free to discuss those topics outside of this community.
Note that this decision isn’t about ideological gatekeeping, its about reducing the workload for our own mods and admins in trying to moderate this community, and to avoid iterating over the same old topics again and again.
Blajah isn’t getting a “free pass” over YPTB posts - if you feel they are power tripping over other issues then feel free to make a post here. But if it’s a post questioning the validity of xenogenders or about Blajah bans for gatekeeping then that will no longer be allowed here. Those folks deserve a safe space on Lemmy, even if it’s not a mainstream opinion.
For those folks who feel aggrieved about being accused of “transphobia” or “gatekeeping” over their views on this topic, I completely understand just how hurtful it can be to be unfairly (imo) accused in this way. I’ve been in the same position, and I also found it difficult to deal with. I want those folks to know that our instance does not require you to support xenogenders in order to participate in our instance. However we do require that you use preferred pronouns whenever they are specified. That’s been a longstanding instance policy on dbzer0.
Thank everyone for your feedback.
I’m OK with that but it has to be a bit more targeted specifically to blahaj’s rule about gatekeeping and neopronouns, and I would add everything drag of course.
I wouldn’t delete old posts, just lock them.
Maybe make it a temporary moratorium?
agree. seeing that the trolls the posters here are crying about have been banneed for weeks to months, a temporary moratorium is probably fine. maybe six months but im pulling that number from nowhere.EDIT: I have changed my mind about this. See https://lemmy.cafe/comment/10132150 and the preceding thread.
I’d want the old posts kept for historical reference, but otherwise I’m fine with this.
In favor of doing this, but keep the old posts locked without removing them so people know what happened and what led up to this.
I’m fine with not allowing it in the future, but I would appreciate not deleting the ones that already exist.
For archival’s sake. And for so when questions are asked about why, people can see for themselves what happened and decide whether what they see justifies blocking blahaj for them personally or not.
The way Blahaj creates a safe space is a way that ends up creating a very toxic space for others, and I don’t think erasing grievances people have had with them in the past would be good.
The fact that it’s so common means a lot of people are feeling attacked/invalidated/whatnot because of Blahaj, and leaving evidence of what they’ve done to others could help reassure people that it’s not them. Blahaj is just like that.
… If anyone up to the challenge of being a mod of a meanwhileonblahaj, that might be another decent alternative. I saw the idea floating around.
- Leave the threads up, probably locked. Don’t erase history.
- I wouldn’t start on wholesale topic bans just yet. This should be an absolute last resort and this will probably do more harm than good.
- Possibly create some extra categories for titles so users can filter it out if they don’t want to hear about it. Instance name of the potential PTB? Not sure.
My suggestion for this topic right now is to get everyone together that needs to and talk/scream/yell about it in private. I think everything has been said publicly at this point and the reading comprehension has gone down the toilet. The amount of misunderstandings, blanket downvotes, pettiness, bad assumptions, baiting and finger pointing is getting ridiculous. Have your damn say and find a conclusion, even if said conclusion is ‘fuck you’ from each person.
For shit like this in the future? If it comes to it, it is far better to lock first, talk to the person, and then unlock it. We can tell each other all day to be an adult, but it isn’t that simple. There will always be some big event that floods the community at some point or another. This community practically begs for it. It will eventually be filed into PTB history.
Well, I’m for this move. The why is obvious, as you’ve covered it in the post already.
I would also like to voice support for a couple ideas from previous comments
First, that previous posts stay up, and locked, so that people can still see that the issues were.
Second, that y’all consider the possibility of an FPT (frequently power tripped) thread at some frequency where folks can still hash out the common subjects. This and the mod abuse C/ are valuable pressure relief valves. I worry that a total banning of “frequent fliers” (sic) might have effects down the road.
I know that’s extra work for mods, so it’s definitely a big ask, but lemmy does need places where disgruntled users can complain. Having multiple places is better because one community would get swamped if they’re the only place people can go for specific complaints.
I agree, this community should be a place to discuss mod abuse, not bellyache over transphobia and hate speech being censored or being banned from it. Such discourse makes this community extremely toxic and unusable to vulnerable groups, it also creates inherent bias here favoring alt-right shitheads.
I think @ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone would very much agree with this decision as well.
Ada is in favor of banning dissent
It’s “bellyaching” over dissent from other queers
not bellyache over transphobia and hate speech being censored or being banned from it
Literally the comment you wrote immediately before this one involved you deriding bad faith arguments.
I agree, this community should be a place to discuss mod abuse, not bellyache over transphobia and hate speech being censored or being banned from it. Such discourse makes this community extremely toxic and unusable to vulnerable groups, it also creates inherent bias here favoring alt-right shitheads.
“It’s not mod abuse if I think they had it coming for Wrongthink, and even discussing the possibility should be banned.”
“It’s not mod abuse if I think they had it coming for Wrongthink, and even discussing the possibility should be banned.”
“I’m just going to ignore every point he makes and make up some worthless garbage about banning by disagreement because I can’t address Draconic’s actual points”
“I’m just going to ignore every point he makes and make up some worthless garbage about banning by disagreement because I can’t address Draconic’s actual points”
The issue brought up by these threads is whether moderator action was justified or not; whereas you are saying the very topic is verboten and makes this place “toxic” and “unusable” as you harass marginalized folk who commit the crime of disagreeing with you. The point you’re making is in favor of a topic ban on YPTB. Hence “and even discussing the possibility should be banned.” I’m sorry that you don’t understand what you yourself are advocating for.
You got your answer long ago. You Deserved It, They Deserved it. You and them are indeed gatekeeping other people’s identities and accusing them of being evil for identifying that way. Also for the record calling people out for gatekeeping and hostility is not “harassing minorities” people don’t get a free pass because they’re trans sweetie, if they’re gatekeeping assholes they get called out. Whether they scream bigotry afterwards or not is their choice but when they chose to falsely scream bigotry it says more about them than the person calling them out, and ironically puts them in that bad situation of being harmful since crying wolf about transphobia ends up being more harmful than helpful.
You got your answer long ago. You Deserved It, They Deserved it.
Yes, I know you think they deserved to be harassed by you and your pals, but generally in this comm the question is about moderator action.
You and them are indeed gatekeeping other people’s identities and accusing them of being evil for identifying that way.
Fucking what.
Also for the record calling people out for gatekeeping and hostility is not “harassing minorities” people don’t get a free pass because they’re trans sweetie, if they’re gatekeeping assholes they get called out. Whether they scream bigotry afterwards or not is their choice but when they chose to falsely scream bigotry it says more about them than the person calling them out, and ironically puts them in that bad situation of being harmful since crying wolf about transphobia ends up being more harmful than helpful.
God, that’s some painful fucking irony, to say that with no self-awareness. Bravo.
You’re being obtuse and I hope when things cool down you’re able to see the harm this behavior is causing in this specific circumstance and also more generally. I understand that you probably have good intentions but I think you’re either very misguided, trolling, reacting without thinking through the impact of your behavior, or some combination of these things, and I do feel like the ban was warranted especially considering the fit you’re throwing. I have respect for the involvement you have in sustaining and contributing platform and the effort you clearly put into it, and I have seen you say things I really agreed with, but this is too much for me. This is not how you encourage left unity and safe and sustainable practices that support as many people as possible. I know you know about the paradox of tolerance.
You’re being obtuse and I hope when things cool down you’re able to see the harm this behavior is causing in this specific circumstance and also more generally.
A trans user was just harassed off the Fediverse by these people, man. Is that harm invisible? I’m bitching about people doing that. That’s harmful?
I understand that you probably have good intentions but I think you’re either very misguided, trolling, reacting without thinking through the impact of your behavior, or some combination of these things, and I do feel like the ban was warranted especially considering the fit you’re throwing.
My ban’s not the issue, here. When it was locked the other day, I was content to let that be it. The ban was a minor thing; annoying and shitty, but ultimately not meaning much considering that, as mentioned in the OP, I didn’t even use Blahaj anymore.
If you think my ban was warranted, that’s fine. But “We shouldn’t discuss Blahaj anymore”, as in the comment I was replying to, is not.
I know you know about the paradox of tolerance.
Sure. You tolerate Nazis, they’ll take over and won’t tolerate you.
Where are the Nazis, here?
Because it looks to me an awful lot like infinite purity tests inflicted even on users outside of the Blahaj instance, combined with sustained harassment; neither of which encourage left unity or safe and sustainable practices that support as many people as possible.
Where are the Nazis, here?
Luckily I don’t see many here (Lemmy), and if I do I am prepared to confront them in whatever way is required. Please point me in their direction if you know of any. I hope you’re not calling the people who are upset by this situation Nazis, because I haven’t seen any behavior that would warrant that and it would be very alarming and disappointing if that was happening here in a digital space I have come to feel safer in than most others, and would warrant an evaluation of what I am doing here, and I hope that I haven’t been spending my time reaching out and talking to and just associating with people who hold those beliefs.
A trans user was just harassed off the Fediverse by these people
I saw some of the comments that person was making. If they have to go somewhere else to learn how to respect spaces specifically curated by and for trans people that’s fine with me, I didn’t get the feeling they (or for that matter, you) were willing or able to do so at this point, at least in this specific case in the way that was asked.
And please don’t throw in my face again their (or for that matter, your own) marginalized status, it feels to me like it’s being used as some kind of gotcha or get out of jail free card, and that is disrespectful as much as most anything that I’ve seen* has happened in this thread.
I am hoping that by adding my perspective others might feel supported or safer here, and others yet will hopefully see that horizontal harm is a thing that we have to be aware of and identify and do the work to minimize, internally and externally (referring to both the harm and the work).
I’m bitching about people doing that.
I am not talking directly to anyone but you, and here, you are talking to me, please keep that in mind. It’s fine to complain and always good to speak out against harm coming unwarranted or unfairly to others, but I’m talking to you about your behavior.
Please feel free to reach out for further 1:1 discussion, or not if you do not want to. It’s about time we end the the perpetuation of harm in online and physical spaces and in the systems that we live under. Please also feel free to reach out for support with other efforts towards that goal or other similar ones.
Edited to add language to clarify a bit, if others feel like I’m wrong in my assessments and what I’ve said I am open to feedback, I’m not trying to deny anyone’s experience or minimize harm that has come to others. My goal is always to prevent and reduce harm and if I’m not doing that I would hope someone here would call me in.
Luckily I don’t see many here (Lemmy), and if I do I am prepared to confront them in whatever way is required.
In this comparison, where are the Nazis, here?
Where is the threat which, if tolerated, will oppress everyone else?
Please, enlighten me.
And please don’t throw in my face again their (or for that matter, your own) marginalized status, it feels to me like it’s being used as some kind of gotcha or get out of jail free card, and that is disrespectful as much as most anything that has happened in this thread.
Considering that this is all to the drumbeat of “We MUST protect marginalized people!”, it’s kind of fucking relevant.
I am not talking directly to anyone but you, and here, you are talking to me, please keep that in mind. It’s fine to complain and always good to speak out against harm coming unwarranted or unfairly to others, but I’m talking to you about your behavior.
My behavior being complaining something you don’t feel should be complained about, because you feel silence and complicity serves the LGBT community on Lemmy more than airing out the dirty laundry?
Where is the threat which, if tolerated, will oppress everyone else?
The current US admin and other actual Nazis.
where are the Nazis, here?
I told you I don’t see any, here in this thread, and rarely if ever on Lemmy as a whole would I describe the behavior of others as “Nazi” or as you put it “Where is the threat which, if tolerated, will oppress everyone else?”, which is apparently what you think Nazi means?
Please, enlighten me.
Please enlighten me as to where I said there were any here. As I recall that was you, still waiting for that link.
My behavior being complaining something you don’t feel should be complained about
I did not and would not say that.
because you feel silence and complicity serves the LGBT community on Lemmy more than airing out the dirty laundry?
Yeah, that’s clearly consistent with my behavior and what I say here and elsewhere 🙄 fuck off troll
They’re just wanting you to call them a Nazi so it can be screenshotted and posted as proof of something elsewhere.
You seem like the kinda guy who says calling Nazis Nazis devalues the word Nazi.
… because I summarized someone else’s position accurately?
I’m completely in favor of this.
Frankly, most of what I see on this comm is BPR and YDI, and most people could probably benefit from taking their bans and touching grass. But having some posts be YDI makes the PTB’s more exciting so maybe i’m wrong.
Maybe we should make some penalty for earning a YDI or BPR, so that people who receive them aren’t encouraged to re-hash the same conflicts over and over? I’m honestly not sure. Part of the problem is that the same people cross-post the same conflict on similar comms, which makes it feel as if the same issue is being litigated repeatedly.
But complaining about receiving a ban from a protective community with strict conduct policies is certainly not the intent of this community, i don’t think.
But complaining about receiving a ban from a protective community with strict conduct policies is certainly not the intent of this community, i don’t think.
Is that all it takes to be immune from PTB status? Being a ‘protective’ community, but only towards the ‘right’ people who think in the ‘right’ way?
Maybe it is? Don’t non-binary people have a right to moderate their own space as they like?
If they have a rule against gatekeeping gender identities and pronouns in their own instance, don’t they have a right to remove offenders from their servers?
You’re all over this topic today, maybe just take a second and listen to what the community is saying. You’ve more than said your piece.
Don’t non-binary people have a right to moderate their own space as they like?
Sure, though it seems as if their right extends to not being satirized in other communities for being power-tripping bastards. Don’t they have a right to not be criticized for stifling any discussion and banning people based on vibes and posting history, using thought-terminating cliches in place of arguments? Well, it seems they do.
And what about queer people who don’t play the pronoun police power tripping game? We should just go fuck ourselves I guess
No, you should find a community that’s a better fit for you
Oh, the irony.
Social Media has destroyed people’s sense of nuance and irony.
Maybe it is? Don’t non-binary people have a right to moderate their own space as they like?
Is there a group out there that doesn’t have the right to moderate their own space ‘as they like’?
If they have a rule against gatekeeping gender identities and pronouns in their own instance, don’t they have a right to remove offenders from their servers?
“They have the right” and “It is always the correct call” are two entirely different concepts.
You’re all over this topic today, maybe just take a second and listen to what the community is saying. You’ve more than said your piece.
Yeah, well maybe I’m fucking pissed that I just watched a user get harassed out of the Fediverse because Blahaj wants to play harassment games on other people’s instances, and that I’m the one who had to fucking bring it up to be discussed. Maybe I don’t like the idea that if I stayed quiet this all would’ve been swept under the rug.
Jesus
I haven’t a clue what event you’re referring to even though I feel as though I’ve encountered nothing but your comments today. If your goal is to discuss a specific abuse then you’ve done a piss poor job of it.
I’d recommend reaching out to @dbzero@lemmy.dbzer0.com if you think there’s been that severe of an abuse that’s happened, and the community mod hasn’t addressed it well enough.
Honestly, though, it just seems like you have an axe to grind and you’re taking it out on everyone else. Either settle it with the admins or cool off a bit, you’re souring the space for everyone by flaming out like this.
I haven’t a clue what event you’re referring to even though I feel as though I’ve encountered nothing but your comments today.
I’ve summarized the events in this thread alone at least twice.
My opinions on xenogender aside, the fact that Blahaj defenders, in this very comm, harassed a trans user into leaving the Fediverse has me fuming, and rightfully so in my opinion. And they play it off as “[The harassed user] deserved it.” even now. That is pretty core to the anger I feel right now.
Uh, considering recent events, where Blahaj defenders dogpiled a trans person on another instance for disagreeing with them, you sure about that
Most of my comments have been refutations to specific arguments put forth in the context of those events.
What user was it?
Do you have something more specific than your (purely objective) recounting of what happened? A link to it?
At the moment, I’m not sure I’d trust you if you told me the sky was blue
https://lemmy.world/post/26286098
It’s one of the most recent threads on this comm.
Boy you sure are pissed you got blocked before getting to say a slur.
Boy you sure are pissed you got blocked before getting to say a slur.
what
I stopped visiting this instance because the transphobic screeds became too much for me. Someone who doesn’t ‘get’ half of young trans people but just feels being nice to people exploring themselves or ignoring them if they’re too much is easier.
Removed by mod
The way I see it, is that the rules and aim of the instance are all written out pretty fucking clearly and people on a platform dominated by longform text don’t really have an excuse for not being able to comprehend it. Like seriously, I had been using Lemmy for two days when I checked out Blåhaj, and I feel like I understood then already because it’s not hard and English is my native language.
So that said, when I see people complaining about it, I think they’re either fucking stupid, or they’re probably these ‘free speech’ people that want the right to go around insulting everyone without consequences (while doing the most epic pearl clutching the moment anyone insults them).
As far as I’m concerned, moderators and admins doing exactly what is clearly fucking written in the description and rules is not power abuse.
Someone was banned yesterday who didn’t even participate in the instance.
That person seems to be an alt wanted to rehash the whole 196 debacle
I was banned as a queer person for saying that the genderless pronoun “they/them” does not undermine someone’s gender and is just using English as intended.
They’re out to fucking brunch while we’re about to be genocided im america. It’s disgusting having this level of trolling run a queer space. There needs to be an alternative queer space where free speech is tolerated.
And yeah, I’m mad as hell about it and not backing down. These petulant children who run queer spaces these days put us all at risk when they protect trolling neopronouns and non human identities and kick actual queers out. For “gatekeeping”. Fuck blahaj.
I was banned as a queer person for saying that the genderless pronoun “they/them” does not undermine someone’s gender and is just using English as intended.
get your facts straight you were banned for misunderstanding a conversation SO BADLY you verbally abused another user that you actually agreed with
https://lemmy.cafe/comment/9831688
and that’s the most charitable interperetation i can give you
Making up shit in that thread at the time wasn’t enough for you, you feel the need to cite your own bullshit as well?
if i remove the shit i “made up” (i inferred there was a contextual misunderstanding using my best effort) the evidence is even worse for inv3r5ion here
the shit i “made up” is the difference between [misunderstanding ~> verbal abuse] to just regular old [verbal abuse for no reason]
Yeah, don’t care. Staring down a genocide in America, the pronoun police can go fuck themselves and live in their little fantasy world where dragons are people and queers who don’t play the power tripping pronoun police game are not.
Also don’t you have a life? You’re literally in every fucking drama commenting about shit that has nothing to do with you.
Maybe if I identify as an attack helicopter the blahaj mods will get the fucking point. Unlikely.
So that said, when I see people complaining about it, I think they’re either fucking stupid, or they’re probably these ‘free speech’ people that want the right to go around insulting everyone without consequences (while doing the most epic pearl clutching the moment anyone insults them).
I was accused of being a transphobe on a comm that wasn’t even in Blahaj. I defended myself. For that, I was banned. Another poster, a trans user, made a comment. For that, they were dogpiled by Blahaj defenders, called a fascist and a transphobe, and then banned. Now Blahaj defenders want this to not be discussed under any circumstances.
Who here wants the right to go around insulting everyone without consequences?
Who here wants the right to go around insulting everyone without consequences?
Haven’t you figured out by now that’s the strawman argument of any queer person who wants to feel oppression and be offended?
Now Blahaj defenders want this to not be discussed under any circumstances.
I don’t think they’re saying you can’t discuss it, or they’re going to ban or defederate you for trying to talk about it, or anything like that. They’re just saying that, now that the issue has been discussed a bunch of times in this community with nothing getting accomplished other than a big productive-conclusion-free food fight, they’d like to (or they are proposing to) prohibit future repetitions of the exact same food fight. I think this is one of the rare times when “you can still talk about it, you just can’t do it here anymore” has a good amount of validity.
And like I say, I think the users are much more the issue here than the moderation. I think “how do we manage to get along on the fediverse” may be a better way to approach it than “don’t you agree that the mods of blahaj are terrible.”
Who here wants the right to go around insulting everyone without consequences?
That’s sort of what I’m saying. A lot of people on lemmy do want to have that right, and it’s not super-important (apparently) within the consensus culture to say they’re not allowed to. The boundaries of what’s acceptable behavior are often in very weird places, to me.
I don’t think they’re saying you can’t discuss it, or they’re going to ban or defederate you for trying to talk about it, or anything like that.
Proposal from OP, one of the mods (who, in fairness to them, is very hard put on by all this pointless fucking drama that they get to get hit with without even being involved)
that we no longer accept posts about this topic in this community; and
we also remove previous posts on this topic from the community.
One of the most upvoted replies:
I agree, this community should be a place to discuss mod abuse, not bellyache over transphobia and hate speech being censored or being banned from it. Such discourse makes this community extremely toxic and unusable to vulnerable groups, it also creates inherent bias here favoring alt-right shitheads.
They’re just saying that, now that the issue has been discussed a bunch of times in this community with nothing getting accomplished other than a big productive-conclusion-free food fight, they’d like to (or they are proposing to) prohibit future repetitions of the exact same food fight.
The reason why it is production-free is because Blahaj defenders swarm the comm every time it happens. If the position is “Users are sabotaging discussions they don’t want to happen, so we should just not have those discussions”, then all you’ve done is reward toxic behavior.
(who, in fairness to them, is very hard put on by all this pointless fucking drama that they get to get hit with without even being involved)
Yeah that’s part of my POV lol.
we also remove previous posts on this topic from the community.
Yeah, deleting past posts is silly I think. I don’t agree with that part.
I agree, this community should be a place to discuss mod abuse, not bellyache over transphobia and hate speech being censored or being banned from it. Such discourse makes this community extremely toxic and unusable to vulnerable groups, it also creates inherent bias here favoring alt-right shitheads.
Yeah, that’s a bunch of bullshit. The only reason I didn’t get in an argument with that person is (1) life is short (2) like I was saying, there are clearly a bunch of good-faith people who are sort of twisted up with certain words and definitions, such that they’ll interpret anyone trying to disagree with that person as transphobia. That’s the whole point of them being so forceful about defining anyone disagreeing with them in a very particular way. It lays the groundwork for anyone who’s an “ally” to misinterpret any disagreement.
I think the solution to that has to come in some other form than just having a big sprawling slapfight with them. The chance of them seeing reason about it seems near 0, and I think the sum total impact of the slapfight on other people who are observing it will just be to drive them a little further into their echo-chamber.
The reason why it is production-free is because Blahaj defenders swarm the comm every time it happens. If the position is “Users are sabotaging discussions they don’t want to happen, so we should just not have those discussions”, then all you’ve done is reward toxic behavior.
Correct. I’m not saying it’s not a problem. I’m saying that having big frequent slapfights about it will not solve the problem (and yes, partly specifically because at this point there’s a whole crew of users who’ve I guess been amped-up and trained to come in and vigorously inflame the slapfight any time one happens.) The best I can come up with is:
- Having a more serious conversation about what type of culture we want to establish here, without coming out of the gate and announcing, effectively, that anyone who’s a supporter of one particular instance is “bad.”
- Changing the tradition of moderation so that there’s not an expectation of someone standing over the comments needing to delete anything that is “bad” before someone sees it, and has a total meltdown and can’t get out of bed for the rest of the day.
Neither of those are simple things to do. I’m just saying that that type of conversation seems more likely to lead to a good solution to the badness that you’re seeing, than is just vocally hassling the blahaj admins and users every time this same issue comes up.
Blahaj defenders swarm the comm every time it happens
Banned users like yourself also flood the thread every time. I don’t see how that’s any different.
Banned users like yourself also flood the thread every time. I don’t see how that’s any different.
What, all three of us? Clearly we’re mass downvoting Blahaj defenders and mass-upvoting our Banned Comrades™. Hell, I was only added to that banned list the other day.
Why do you need to delete old posts?
Where can users banned by blahaj admins for lurking in other communities report it? Especially because the lahaj admins ban so many people for gatekeeping despite them not gatekeeping.
There’s a theme here of covering up dissent instead of engaging.
Blahaj admins started this whole ordeal in december for banning dissent and losing dozens of users instead of engaging with their community.
PTB
THANK YOU
I wouldn’t be against a temporary ban on posts about getting banned from LBZ over neopronouns, but my general inclination is to keep the previous posts up but locked as a wall of shame. I also understand wanting to take them down altogether and I wouldn’t be that fussed about it if they were.
As a blahaj’r, I would deeply appreciate this.
i started banned by blahaj to resolve this issue i hope you appreciate it
Hey dick why did you remove my post?
you broke rule 1 and failed to resolve it i will restore your post if you resolve the transgression
edit for context this exchange is in reference to a post on !chadmctruthstruth@lemmy.world not banned by blahaj
I’ll die on the hill that their bullshit about pronouns and respecting nonsense and made up troll identities that make a mockery of us makes the world LESS SAFE for queer people. As a queer person who is visibly gender nonconforming and at physical risk in our current political environment. Im willing to be banned from all of lemmy over this idgaf.
Millennial queers and our elders fought like hell for acceptance so children could get their panties in a twist over being “misgendered” by strangers on the internet who don’t know them nor give a fuck what their gender is. Do these kids even touch grass? Chronically online children putting us all at risk.
Meanwhile we have real serious threats to our physical safety in America but yeah. Let’s whine and cry about being misgendered! it’s oppression!
Edit - IRL I call people what they want to be called. Online I have no idea who the fuck you are or what your gender is nor am I going to remember. And the genderless “they” is not undermining your gender you don’t get to police the English language. And that’s really what this is about. People who feel powerless grabbing on to what little power they have to police others behavior under the ironic concept of “gatekeeping.” That’s the pronoun whining in a nutshell.
As for the question at hand, lock old posts, let new ones through. Their moderation is heavy handed and not queer friendly and they deserve criticism for it. Only their kind of queer is accepted. Not people like me living in reality, staring down the beginning of a genocide and telling them to grow the fuck up.
In a similar vein: they promote a redefined version of asexuality that can end in more people than ever thinking asexual people are just picky and will be happy to do it for their partner and/or “can be fixed”.
The more the redefinition leaks into the real world, the more people once considered broken who were finally starting to be accepted as normal will end up dealing with forced consent via peer pressure and corrective rape.
No means NO, and that was starting to be understood for what it was. With the redefinition of asexual into “No means I have quirky requirements that The One will have”, it ends in real harm for actual no means NO people.
So yes. Real life harm can be caused by toxic gatecrashing. And people causing it call the ones at risk names for the terrible sin of not wanting to be taken as a joke in reality. Literal insult added to injury.
edit: oops i posted this in the wrong thread apologize
They’re a bunch of petulant children who care more about pronoun policing and power tripping and ironically gatekeeping than preparing for the incoming fucking genocide.
They provide a safe space for made up identities and actively harm actual queer people.
here’s a tldr of your spectacular crashout
them: “i acknowledge that memory is fallible but if you know someone and have been introduced to your pronouns you should at least do your best and it’s not very loving to default to they/them you should at least try :)
you: “you are a piss baby and are responsible for your oppression”
you: gets banned
you: “piss baby im being so oppressed also you don’t care about genocide”
Yeah. That’s language policing of they/them just to get butthurt and feel oppressed. I’m not playing this game. We’re dealing with the start of a genocide in America nobody has time for this childish bullshit.
I’m dying on this hill. Fuck their feelings.
Why do you care so deeply about a physical genocide of these people while simultaneously refusing to even respect their given culture and self-governing practices?
Perhaps it could be because you don’t actually care about queer/LGBT genocide and are implicitly okay with it so long as it doesn’t spill over onto you? Allyship ain’t a one way street, and it sounds like you’re not even an ally. Sounds like you just wanna coopt their existence as labor to protect you while simultaneously plotting against them and their culture after the threat has passed. You’re no comrade; the only reason you’re not a bigoted fascist is because you’re not übermensch. Unfuck yourself.
I’m queer, fuck you. Fuck your feelings and fuck your pronouns too. Fuck everything about you. Call me a fascist? For holding queer people accountable for their bullshit while we have a genocide approaching us? Fuck alllllll the way off. Fucking child. Waaaah my pronounssssss go complain to the fucking concentration camp guard about being misgendered in a few years!
Let’s set the record straight, queerness and fascist gatekeeping are not mutually exclusive, people can be queer and act in horrible ways, look at transmedicalists, or worse, Blaire White. Being queer doesn’t exclude you from being a fascist if you act like one, and it doesn’t exclude you from being queerphobic either.
I think you’re doing the right thing. The trolls are really stepping up, which is obvious in this thread. I’m trying to share it a lot because if you really read it and understand the process of what they’re doing, you’ll save yourself a lot of time and energy.
“Once we isolate key people, we look for people we know are in their upstream – people that they read posts from, but who themselves are less influential. We then either start flame wars with bots to derail the conversations that are influencing influential people, or else send off specific tasks for sockpuppets (changing this wording of an idea here; cause an ideological split there; etc).”
Edit: I forgot to add this part of the thread:
The goal is to keep opinions we don’t want fragmented and from coalescing in to a single voice for long enough that the memes we do want can,…
The trolls are really stepping up, which is obvious in this thread.
That stood out to me too. A ton of people jumped in with instantly inflammatory takes which seem almost tailor-made to continue this ridiculous dispute.
It’s not just here in this community, it’s throughout the all page. The fediverse is worrying some people and it’s showing.
Man, this is the same spirit of the shit that we perennially went through with forums in the old bbcode days. Established users, especially mods or admins, playing dumb clique games with a community because they all get dopamine from it.
I’m sure the Fediverse does worry some, but this is likely not much influenced by that. It’s just regular, shitty human nature on the internet.
You’re talking to a veteran politics user from the bad place. I love that you’re calling your behavior as being “just regular, shitty human nature” as a defense.
You’re talking to a veteran politics user from the bad place. I love that you’re calling your behavior as being “just regular, shitty human nature” as a defense.
What?
Bruh they’re a troll, ignore them.
I think it is both. It’s very subtle, but there’s enough of distinct little overlap between accounts that support super-odd political views, and accounts that like to attack specific people and cause random drama, that I found it really interesting.
And yes, also, people are jerks sometimes when you give them power and anonymity and a social grouping that is unmoored from everything except the dots on screen and the imaginings in their heads.
I actually have a pretty high opinion of PugJesus otherwise…
I actually have a pretty high opinion of PugJesus otherwise…
I do too. He’s not wrong here. I just think it’s not productive to have extensive bitter arguments about it. I think it’s a selected group of users starting all the drama (I have no idea if because they are trolls or if because they are drama-loving people who like being able to sling around “transphobia!” because it makes them feel like they’re being good allies). Whatever it is, those people are having some level of success in restarting the drama here in these comments. I think continuing the drama in this fashion is playing precisely into their hands, so I support the proposal to ban talking about it here. But he’s not wrong.
Alternative perspective: the drama has been restarted because of PJ’s post, and what seems to be an alt by a person aware of the !196 debacle created to stir that drama
Well, but he made a specific post about a specific mod action that was, in fact, real messed up. That to me is legit even if I think there are better ways of addressing it in this case.
The drama I am talking about is an army of people coming in to screech that anyone who doesn’t agree with them is horrible and bad and transphobic and fascist. I think PJ has a pretty valid point that acceding to that screeching, because it “will cause drama,” is basically ceding control of the space to whoever feels like using the threat of screeching if they don’t get their way.
hey props, this changed my view! i’ll go back and edit my comments. you are right. this should continue to be allowed here as far as the mods feel is possible to keep moderated. you’re right. it’s better for both spaces for all the screeching to be left here because it keeps it away from the trans space.
Alternative perspective: the drama has been restarted because of PJ’s post,
What caused my post, I wonder? It must have been nothing. Maybe the wind.
My opinions on xenogender aside, the fact that Blahaj defenders, in this very comm, harassed a trans user into leaving the Fediverse has me fuming, and rightfully so in my opinion. And they play it off as “[The harassed user] deserved it.” even now. That is pretty core to the anger I feel right now.
Did they know about the idea of different instances, and each one having their own set of rules and missions?
I was going to ask whether you meant the harassers or the harassed, but I think the answer is yes in both cases.
And they still left the fediverse?
Considering they were attacked on an instance entirely different from the one they thought they were ‘away’ from, by that instance’s defenders?
It’s hard to blame them.
Yeah, you’re not wrong. I read back on it a little bit, and it’s some grade-A bullshit. I’m just not sure if it’s the type of thing that can get solved with griping about the moderation. I think in my mind, the users who were egging on the harassment of that person are different from the moderators who were applying the policy.
I think a lot of the root source of it has to do with the power of words and mental structures. Once any type of disagreement with the official stance is “transphobia,” you’ll get genuinely good people who are for-real convinced that anyone who’s trying to talk sense into them is being transphobic and denying their right to exist, and they’ll get all amped up to fight against that person. If they don’t do that, they’re being a bad member of the community. It’ll tear a big rift in the communication between people. I have some experience with having that kind of structure in your brain and having it distort how you look at things and how you react to things, and it makes it really hard for people to make sense of each other.
I absolutely agree that DraconicNEO harassed the shit out of an actual trans person with some perfectly valid things to say, and is consistently saying “transphobia” is anything they don’t agree with and attacking it using some carefully chosen trigger-words. They’re also coming into these comments to try their absolute best to restart the argument. None of that is a very LGBTQ-friendly thing to do or a good thing for cooperation between instances. I’m just saying I’m not sure the anger needs to be directed at the moderators here. I think trying to strive for an actually inclusive social contract, where people can be okay with each other, is the goal, and that has to start with the ways people interact with each other separate from when banhammers come into the picture. In this case. Does that make sense? Have I missed some case of the blahaj admins doing that type of harassment or anything? I get that the policy seems over-the-top but I’m not aware of them actually being obnoxious about it, they’re just very consistent about applying it. I sort of get why it’s that way, even though I disagree with the decision. I just don’t think they are where the toxicity is coming from, here.
I suppose since the bans started with Draconic Neo calling down Ada, and then Ada finding that a valid reason for a ban, not just for me, but later, separately, without being called in, also for the trans user in question, that I see it in a very “unstated approval” light. I am also very pissed about the harassment situation, though, so I may be making connections with tunnel vision.
Yeah, I think Ada’s just applying the rules. That’s fair (or… well, it makes sense why she’s doing it I mean.) Like I say, I think the goal should be building a social contract where harassing a user in that fashion is going to be seen as “holy shit what’s wrong with that person” as opposed to something normal. Right now, it’s normal for some weird reason. But I think that’s a separate thing, only tangentially related to the moderation. It just happens that that person is also able to abuse the rules to involve moderators against people who they’re having that type of disagreement with.
Would the harassment-victim have stuck around, if not for the moderation? I don’t know. Maybe so. But I don’t think the moderation is the issue.
Like I said, I see a very “Wink wink” attitude of permissiveness in this, especially considering the second ban was not from Ada being tagged.
Going back to the old forum days comparison, upsetting one of the big users would always get you swarmed, even if the big user didn’t deign to publicly involve themselves.
That kind of community culture is cultivated.
The trolls are really stepping up
Aren’t you like… THE troll?
That’s funny, I don’t consider myself influential. You’re making me blush.
Remember when you banned me because I disagreed with you and it annoyed you and you wanted to win the argument?
I’m very open about banning easily. I have no qualms about it. If I think you’re a troll, you’re gone. I’ll own to being a power tripping bastard. I’ll take that over trolling any day.
BTW, I usually do temp bans in case I make a mistake. If it was permanent, then I was pretty sure.
It wasn’t permanent. It was actually funny, I was just asking.
Were you the one where we were joking around? Sorry, there’s no tagging system and I don’t remember names completely.
I was earnestly suggesting that I thought Tony Hinchcliffe might be trolling the Republican party, and that his standup when viewed from a different angle, was a complete roast of all their own talking points.
But you disagreed deeply, and thought I was trolling.
Being a mod sucks, have I mentioned that lately? I make mistakes, which is why I give temp bans. Sorry if I made a mistake. Sometimes, jokes, trolling and me having a bad day aren’t easy to differentiate.
The whole thread was pretty heated IIRC, so it’s fine. Like I said, it was kind of funny the way it happened, anyway.
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